Team_180B wrote:

You accuse us of being constantly mislead by our 'liberal media', but I think you are all too quick to blindly defend baseless facts.

They are not baseless facts, obviously I was off when I said less than 100 however that website posted above is ridiculos.

And I do know that my errors occur when I take my frustration for the liberal media too far and go 'mega conservative'.

But you need to realize that the majority of what you hear about Americans hating Bush is bullsh*t. He got elected twice.


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tat6789 wrote:

i gave this job to Team because I know he doesn't have a soul.

Pads4Life wrote:

But you need to realize that the majority of what you hear about Americans hating Bush is bullsh*t. He got elected twice.

And you need to realize we know more than you think.

Yes, a few days ago nish and I discovered the liberal media chips in our brains and successfully removed them. As a result, a wealth of information is now available to us; independant thought truly is a gift we shall not squander.


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Bigger Than Big, Stronger Than Strong

Pads4Life wrote:

Glaeqon wrote:

Civilians reported killed by military intervention in Iraq
Min. 26323

Max. 29653


http://www.iraqbodycount.net/


less than 100? wtf are you talking about?

HAHAH IRAQBODYCOUNT.NET?!?!

yah that sounds like a completely moderate webpage to me

give me a break

i GAURENTEE it is no where near that number

NOT EVEN CLOSE

Taken directly from iraqbodycount.net

"This is a human security project to establish an independent and comprehensive public database of media-reported civilian deaths in Iraq resulting directly from military action by the USA and its allies in 2003. In the current occupation phase this database includes all deaths which the Occupying Authority has a binding responsibility to prevent under the Geneva Conventions and Hague Regulations. This includes civilian deaths resulting from the breakdown in law and order, and deaths due to inadequate health care or sanitation. Results and totals are continually updated and made immediately available on this page and on various IBC counters which may be freely displayed on any website, where they will be automatically updated without further intervention. Casualty figures are derived solely from a comprehensive survey of online media reports. Where these sources report differing figures, the range (a minimum and a maximum) are given. All results are independently reviewed and error-checked by at least three members of the Iraq Body Count project team before publication."

And you are calling us naive? That we follow whatever the liberal media tells us? Do me a favor, how about you email Fox News, or some other conservative news venue, ask them for a number civilian casualties that have died since the start of the war. It will most likely be a number larger than the minimum number I listed.

iraqbodycount.net has been cited on several different news stations. INCLUDING Fox news. It is one of the only independent counts of civilian casualties. I dont even know if the military has one. If they do, then it has never been released.

I dont see how you come off basically calling us 'victims of the liberal media'. I'm smart enough to tell the difference between political propaganda and actual facts. But you, Pads, you seem to be a 'victim of the conservative media'.

I agreed with the Iraq war in the beginning, when I thought, like most americans, that they were a threat to national security. But they werent. There were no WMDs, no chemical weapons. Sure it may have been somewhat of a haven for Al Qaeda, but I garuntee there is more Al Qaeda members and other terrorist organizations acting in Iraq now, then there ever would have been. Yes we liberated millions, and yes that is a good thing. But in my opinion, with the death toll, and the lack of progress in the fight against the insurgents, not to mention the fact that the whole basis of the war was BS, that it was not AT ALL friggin worth it.

Unfortunatley, we are locked in over there now, because to bail on the Iraqi's at this point would be bullshit as well. But this conflict is FAR from friggin over, and who knows how many more soldiers and how many more civilian lives will be lost, all because we were told half-truths, and flat out lies.

So please Pads, excuse me for my frustration.


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Children running in the streets...
Soldier boots are on their feet...
Mothers bare the burdens of our defeats...
Fathers are on their knees praying for mercy..

Glaeqon wrote:

...I garuntee there is more Al Qaeda members and other terrorist organizations acting in Iraq now, then there ever would have been.

I'm interested to know how you can do this.


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Bigger Than Big, Stronger Than Strong

Team, shush you lol. Of course i cant garuntee anything. it was a figure of speech.

But, now to most muslim extremists, Iraq is basically fighting the good fight. They are flocking from all over, to try to disrupt US hold. Even if and when we leave Iraq, there will always be muslim extremists in the country now. And im sure they will look at the Iraqi government the same they will other countries that has strong ties with the US. As Enemies. We basically have made Iraq more popular for terrorists in some weird sort of way. Sure the terrorist supporting government was taken out, but now it will be a hotbed for a really long time.


_________________
Children running in the streets...
Soldier boots are on their feet...
Mothers bare the burdens of our defeats...
Fathers are on their knees praying for mercy..

I agree with Glaeqon to some extent, I do think Iraq is becoming a symbol for anti-US ideals, and this is very dangerous.
I find it interesting how fast people came to associate Iraq with terrorists, this never having been a real issue. I think that people tend to think Afghanistan and Iraq (Or any other middle eastern nation for that matter) are interchangeable, often forgetting they differ vastly but are linked by the US and allied interests there.


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Bigger Than Big, Stronger Than Strong

I think the entire idea of "The War on Terror" is pretty cooky. Its not a war really, there is no enemy army, its just pissed off extremist civilians. I mean, I do agree that we should defend ourselves against any threat, but how can you offensively fight an army that doesnt really exist? If anything our "war" is just perpetuating violence, and these extremist ideas. We are playing world police, which isnt what we are, or should be. I do not agree with Pads on this matter at all. The idea that we should butt our heads into other peoples conflicts and matters, just because we dont agree with them is ludacris. I think America needs to start minding its own damn bussiness. Unless it is a matter of national security, or some sort of cataclysmic tragedy, why the hell should we spend our money, time, and in some instances our soldiers lives, over something that we have, and shouldnt have, anything to do with?

Imagine if we were in the opposite position. Imagine how angry you would be, if some other bigger more powerful country tryed to come in and change the workings of your country, just because they dont agree with it?

Lets say there was an imaginary country of homosexuals, and they were bigger and richer than us. And what if they invaded our country, and forced us to make gay marriages legal. Just because they thought thats how it should be. Wouldnt that piss you off Pads?


_________________
Children running in the streets...
Soldier boots are on their feet...
Mothers bare the burdens of our defeats...
Fathers are on their knees praying for mercy..

I think the 'War on Terror' originally referred to the Taliban, who were an organized force. The term however has been extended to include the operations in Iraq by allied forces.

And the forced application of same-sex marriage can hardly be compared to Saddam Hussein's self preserving and often brutal regime.
But I do agree that no country has the right to invade another. But what if human rights violations are taking place in that country? What if it is revealed that state sanctioned torture and murders are taking place. Indeed there is no universal formula for when it is right to invade another nation, and there will undoubtedly be opposition to any decision made. We can only hope that Iraq's new presiding body is able to assert control over its populace and the US revises her World Police attitude.


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Bigger Than Big, Stronger Than Strong

I wasnt meaning to compare my statements to Iraq. and the "War on Terror" wasnt originally coined for the Afghanistan conflict. The war in Afghanistan was the start of the war on terror. I cant remember the exact quote, but the president, and other people in his cabinet stated it was the beggining of a war against terror, where ever it may be.

But yeah, in no way was i meaning to compare my imiginary invasion to Iraq at all. As I have said before, I am glad, as should everyone be, that Hussein's regime is no more. All I meant was to put a perspective on how the US government likes to throw its weight around, just to gets its way. It mostly comes in the form of political pressures, and trade embargos and such. I'm sick of how my country likes to poke its nose into everything, wether its our bussiness or not. I'm not saying I'm an isolationist, not by any means. If a country wants our help, we should give it. If a country is a direct threat to us, then we should do what we can to ensure our own safety. BUT, when people make up a bunch of bullshit excuses to invade a country, basically just to gain a political foothold in a region, that is wrong.

It is good Hussein is gone, thats no question. But the reasons he is gone are what is bullshit.


_________________
Children running in the streets...
Soldier boots are on their feet...
Mothers bare the burdens of our defeats...
Fathers are on their knees praying for mercy..

Ahh now I understand. I agree, but it's hard to tell if a country really is a threat, so the US isn't taking any chances.
I think it's good the US wants the world to eliminate their various nuclear arsenals, but America needs to do the exact same god damn thing.


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Bigger Than Big, Stronger Than Strong

Yeah hahaha, we are making everyone else get rid of there nukes, while we sit on ours and laugh.

We have more than almost any other country also. We could obliterate the planet like 5 times over if we really wanted too.

Thats another thing! Our government needs to stop making a us hypocrites.


_________________
Children running in the streets...
Soldier boots are on their feet...
Mothers bare the burdens of our defeats...
Fathers are on their knees praying for mercy..

Glaeqon wrote:

Yeah hahaha, we are making everyone else get rid of there nukes, while we sit on ours and laugh.

We have more than almost any other country also. We could obliterate the planet like 5 times over if we really wanted too.

Thats another thing! Our government needs to stop making a us hypocrites.

I agree I don't see the point of us having all these nukes, however we are not hypocrites. Obviouly nukes in our hands are a LOT safer and less likely to be used than if North Korea has some, or Iran. The UN recognizes this too, and ofcourse the UN is everybodys boyfriend so we have to agree with what they say.


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tat6789 wrote:

i gave this job to Team because I know he doesn't have a soul.

Don't forget the US in the only nation to have used nuclear weapons against an enemy.


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Bigger Than Big, Stronger Than Strong

Yeah, America should just get rid of all its nukes. It doesnt make any sense; there is no other reason to have them unless you think you'll have to use them.


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Tell me how he died.

I will tell you how he lived.

We are slowly getting rid of all of them ever since the end of the cold war.


But it's sort of like playing woodchip wars, we'll only put them down if you put yours down first.

And even then, we'll keep a few in our pocket.